Catherine McKenna joined me in person for a live recording of this episode at the Naval Club of Toronto here in our east end. We discussed her new book ‘Run Like a Girl’, lessons learned from her six years in federal politics, the reality of political harassment, the tension between party loyalty and telling it like it is, and why we should be wary of “grand bargains” on climate with oil and gas companies.
Catherine served as Environment and Climate Change Minister from 2015-2019 and Infrastructure Minister from 2019-2021. She’s now the founder and CEO of Climate and Nature Solutions and chairs a UN expert group advising the Secretary General on net zero commitments.
Read further:
Run Like A Girl - Catherine McKenna (2025)
https://www.catherinemckenna.ca
Chapters:
00:00 Introduction & Run Like A Girl Book
05:32 Lessons from Politics: Hard Work & Balance
08:52 Climate Barbie & Political Harassment
15:26 Running for Office in Ottawa Centre
23:17 Being a Team Player vs. Speaking Truth
32:05 Leaving Politics
40:30 Climate Policy & the Oil & Gas “Grand Bargain”
48:24 Supporting Others in Politics
52:56 Carbon Pricing Communication Failures
59:13 Gender Balance, Feminism & Cabinet
01:04:04 Final Thoughts & Closing
Transcript:
[00:00:00] Nate Erskine-Smith: Well thank you everyone for joining. This is a live recording of the Uncommons Podcast, and I’m lucky to be joined by Catherine McKenna, who has a very impressive CV. You will know her as the former Environment Minister. She is also the founder and CEO of Climate and Nature Solutions, a consultancy focused on all things environment and nature protection. And you may or may not know, but she’s also the chair of a UN expert group that gives advice to the Secretary General on net zero solutions. So thank you for coming to Beaches New York.
[00:00:33] Catherine McKenna: It’s great to be here. Hello everyone. And special shout out to the guy who came all the way from Bowmanville. That’s awesome. Anyone from Hamilton, that’s where I’m originally from? All right. Nice. We got a shout for Hamilton. Woo hoo.
[00:00:51] Nate Erskine-Smith: So I ran down a few things you’ve accomplished over the years, but you are also the author of Run Like A Girl. I was at, you mentioned a book launch last night here in Toronto. But I attended your book launch in Ottawa and you can all pick up a book on the way out, but who did you write this book for?
[00:01:13] Catherine McKenna: So I mean, this book has been a long time in the making. It’s probably been five years. It was a bit of a COVID project, and you’ll see I’ve got my prop here, my book, but you’ll see it’s not a normal kind of book. It has a lot of images of objects and pictures. Pictures of me getting ready to go to the state visit dinner that was hosted by Obama while I’m trying to finalize the texts on climate. So it’s got random things in it, but it’s intended for a much broader audience. It’s really intended to inspire women and girls and young people, and I think that’s particularly important right now because I work on climate and I think it’s really hard. Do people here care about climate? Yes. Yes. I imagine here you care about climate. I mean, I actually think most Canadians do because they understand the wildfires and they see the smoke, and people are being evacuated from communities. And you can’t get insurance if you’re in a flood zone. But I do think in particular we need to bolster spirits. But also it is a book. It’s really about how to make change. It’s not like people think it’s like a political memoir. So I think fancy people in politics will look at the end of the book to see if their name is there, and maybe be disappointed if it isn’t. But it’s not really that kind of book. It’s like I was a kid from Hamilton. I didn’t wanna be a politician. That wasn’t my dream when I grew up. I wanted to go to the Olympics for swimming, and spoiler alert, I did not make the Olympic team, but I went to Olympic trials.
Nate: You’re close.
Catherine: I was, yeah. Very close. Closeish but—but it wasn’t, I mean, you know, life is a journey and that wasn’t, it wasn’t sad that I didn’t make it, but I think it’s just to hopefully for people to think I can make change too. Like I didn’t come as a fully formed politician that was destined to be minister for the environment and climate change. So in particular for women and young people who are trying to figure out how to make change, I think it’s a little bit my story. I just tried to figure it out and one day I decided the best way to make change was to go into politics and get rid of Steven Harper. That was my goal. He was my inspiration. Yes. ‘Cause we needed a new government. And yeah, so I really, really, really am trying to reach a much broader audience because I think we often are politicians talking to a very narrow group of people, often very partisan. And that’s not my deal. My deal is we need everyone to be making change in their own way. And I want people who are feeling like maybe it’s a bit hard working on climate or in politics or on democracy or human rights that you too can make change.
[00:03:54] Nate Erskine-Smith: And you, I mean, you were holding it up. I mean, it’s a bit of a scrapbook. You’ve described it. And it’s also honest. I mean, there was some media coverage of it that was saying, oh, you said this about Trudeau calling him a luthier. And there was a certain honesty about I’ve lived in politics and I’m gonna call it like it is. But what I find most interesting is not the sort of the gotcha coverage after the fact. It’s when you go to write something, you said you’re not a writer. When I at the launch that I saw in Ottawa, but you obviously sat down and were trying to figure out what are the lessons learned. You had successes, you’ve had failures, and you’re trying to impart these lessons learned. You mentioned you were going down that road a little bit of what you wanted to impart to people. But you had six years in politics at the upper echelon of decision making on a really important file. Not all—I wanna get to some of the failures ‘cause we’re living through some of ‘em right now. I think, not of your doing, of conservative doing unfortunately, but what would you say are the lessons learned that you know, as you’re crystallizing the moments you’ve lived through, what are those lessons?
[00:05:02] Catherine McKenna: You know, it’s funny ‘cause the lessons I learned actually are from swimming in a way that actually you gotta do the work. That you know, you set a long-term goal and you know, whatever that goal is, whatever you hope to make change on, and then you get up and you do the work. And then you get up the next morning and you do the work again. And sometimes things won’t go your way. But you still get up the next morning and I think it’s important because like, you know, look, we will talk, I’m sure about carbon pricing. We lost the consumer carbon price. There’s a chapter, it’s called Hard Things Are Hard. I’m also really into slogans. I used to be the captain of the UT Swim team, so I feel like my whole life is like a Nike ad or something. Hard things are hard. We can do it. But yeah, I mean, I think that change is incremental and sometimes in life you’re gonna have hard times. But the other thing I want people to take from it is that you know, sometimes you can just go dancing with your friends, right? Or you can call up your book club. I would sometimes have hard days in politics and I was like, oh gosh. That was like, what? And what happened? So I’d send an email, it would say to my book club. So if you have book clubs, book clubs are a good thing. Even if you don’t always read the book, that would be me. But I would send SOS come to my house and I’d be like, all I have is chips and wine, but I just need to hang out with regular people. And I think that’s also important. Like, you know, life is life. Like, you know, you gotta do the work if you really try to make change. But some days are gonna be harder and sometimes you’re just trying to hang in there. And I had, you know, I have three kids. One of them, they’re older now. One of them is actually manning the booth selling the books. But you know, when you’re a mom too, like, you know, sometimes you’re gonna focus on that. So, I don’t know, I think my lessons are, I’m too Gen X to be like, you’ve gotta do this and I learned this and I’m amazing. No, that’s not—
Nate: You’re not writing a graduation speech.
Catherine: I’m not writing a graduation speech. And I don’t know that the particular path I took is what anyone else is gonna do. I was going to, I went to Indonesia to do a documentary about Komodo Dragons because my roommate asked me to. So that led me to go back to Indonesia, which led me to work for UN peacekeeping in East Timor. But I think it’s also like take risks if you’re a young person. Like don’t, people will tell you all the time how you should do things. And I often doubted, should I do this or I didn’t have enough confidence. And I think that’s often, women often feel like that, I’ll say, and you know, at the end, sometimes you are right and it’s okay if your parents don’t like exactly what you’re doing or you know, people say you should stay in corporate law, which I hated, or you know, so I don’t know if there’s so many lessons as you know, one, you gotta do the work. Two, you know, listen to what you really wanna do. That doesn’t mean every day you’re gonna get to do what you wanna do. But you know, if you’re really passionate about working in human rights, work on human rights, like figure out a way to do it, and then also have some fun, like life can feel really heavy. And I felt that during COVID. I think sometimes now after, you know, looking at social media and what Donald Trump has done or threatened to do, it can feel hard. So I think it’s also okay to just check out and have fun.
[00:08:22] Nate Erskine-Smith: I like it. Well there aren’t lessons, but here are three important lessons. It’s good.
Catherine: I am a politician. It’s good.
Nate: Well, it’s okay. You mentioned a few times, really writing this book in a way to young people and specifically to young women to encourage them to make a difference and to get involved and yet politics. We were both drawn to politics, I think for similar reasons, and it is one of the most important ways to make a difference. And I wanna get to, there are other ways to make a difference, of course. But there’s a bit of a tension, I think, in what you’re writing because you’re writing this encouragement to make a difference. And politics is so important. And on the flip side, you document all sorts of different ways that politics has been truly awful. The absurdity of, I knew the ridiculous idiocy of Climate Barbie, but I didn’t actually appreciate that you had these bizarre men coming to your house to take selfies in front of your house. Like, that’s just the next level awfulness. And so how do you, when you’re talking to young people, to encourage them on the one hand, but also you don’t want to shield them from the awfulness. And we all wanna make politics a more civil, better place, but these are problematic tensions.
[00:09:33] Catherine McKenna: Yeah, I mean, look, I thought a lot about what I wanted to say about the hate and abuse that I got, but also my staff got. I mean, they come to my office and start screaming, and of course everything’s videotaped. So, and you know, there were incidents at my house and so. I, first of all, I believe in being honest. Like I just believe in it. I believe that people deserve the truth, but also in this case, I wasn’t looking for sympathy. I’m outta politics. I don’t need sympathy, but we need change. And so I think the only way, one of the only ways we get change and you know how hard it is to get policy, like online harm legislation, we still have not gotten online—
Nate: Yeah. See, you five happened real quick though. Don’t worry.
Catherine: Yeah. Okay. Well, luckily I’m not in politics anymore. I just do my thing. But I do think that by documenting this, I’m hoping that people will read it and say, well, wait a minute. That’s not okay, because that’s how we will get the support to get legislation to make sure that we hold social media platforms accountable. That’s the way that we will be able to get people to say to politicians, you cannot go and do personal attacks and then go spread them online to get clicks. And that we can get proper protection for politicians, which I don’t love, but actually we need it sometimes. So I think that it is important to say that. I don’t want people to feel down because I have multiple purposes in the book. Like people are talking about this and I’ve had a number of my female politician friends saying, thank you for stepping up. ‘Cause now people are taking it more seriously ‘cause they’re like. Wow, that was bad. Like Climate Barbie sounds kind of quaint now, but Climate Barbie led to a whole bunch of things that led to a bunch of things that led to RCMP finally being outside my house, which wasn’t amazing, but at least—
Nate: But it’s one thing to say quaint, but it normalizes a misogyny that is awful. Right? So it’s, and it might not be a direct threat. It might not be taken a selfie outside of your home, which is an implicit threat, but it is, it’s normalizing an awfulness in our politics. Yeah. I mean, it is from other politicians. It was a former minister in Harper’s Cabinet who started it, right? It was, or at least amplified it.
Catherine: We’ll go there like the Climate Barbie. Okay. So Climate Barbie is, it’s quite weird because now my kids are like, well, Barbie went to the moon. Barbie was an astronaut. Quinn is here. Like, you know. Barbies are like not that big a deal. The thing is, if you are my age, if anyone here is 50 or over, I think you’re pretty clear when someone who’s 50 or over calls you Climate Barbie, there’s a lot going on in that. And I said nothing like I was actually baptized Climate Barbie very early on by a rage farming alt-right outlet. They are not media, and that’s what they do. This is their game. They go after progressives to make money actually, for clickbait. But I didn’t do anything for so long. And I guess my team was lovely and I had a lot of really awesome women and they’re like, just don’t do it because you’ll look weak. They’ll know that you know, they can go after you. And so I’m at the UN actually, it’s like seven years ago. I was just at the UN last week. Yes, I heard Donald Trump, but I was there to work on climate. But it was the same thing. It was the end of a really long day. I was going back to the hotel. I was actually in the hotel lobby, some crabby hotel with my team. And I look at my phone, I was like, why is my Twitter exploded? What has happened? And then I see the Climate Barbie tweet, and I said to my team, I said, okay, I’m sorry. I’m just gonna have to deal with this situation. And they knew like I’m, when I say I’m dealing with it, I’m gonna deal with it. And so I’m, you know, I’m a lawyer by training, so I try, I am Irish, I’ve got the hot headed side, and then I’ve got the lawyer rational side. So I was like, okay, what am I going to say that’s gonna call it out, but in a way that isn’t falling into the trap of just calling names. So I said, it’s in this book, I’m gonna get exactly right. But it was something like, would you use that kind of language with your girlfriend, wife, mother? You’re not chasing women out of politics. Your sexism is gonna chase women outta politics, whatever it was. And what was so interesting about this, and this is why in this book I do the same thing, is that it went viral and I wasn’t trying to do this, I was trying to shame him. So he would stop and people would stop me in the streets and it would be, you know, conservative men. They’d be like, I’m a conservative. I’m ashamed. This is not acceptable and I really appreciate this. This is how you stand up to bullies. And I thought, oh, this is important that we do this every once in a while. Because often as a woman you’re kind of supposed to take it. ‘Cause otherwise you look a bit weak. And I realize actually the power is other people saying that this is not okay.
Nate: Yeah, exactly.
Catherine: So I actually appreciate that you call it out. You will see in my book, I will, let me see if I can find it. I also kind of bizarrely, a bunch of men would send me Barbies with really mean notes. So they’d go to a store, buy a Barbie, oh my God, oh my God. Then go and find the address of my constituency office or my ministerial office and then send it with a note that they personally addressed. Like that’s kinda weird. So anyway, the funny thing is, I guess this isn’t funny. I don’t know, there’s a Barbie, this is actually a picture of one of the Barbies that was sent. We would normally put our Barbies in the Christmas toy drive ‘cause we figured might as well give it to kids that would like the Barbie. But I found one when I was cleaning up my office and I was like, oh, I’m gonna just keep that. I’m gonna just keep that so you can—
Nate: No one’s sent me Barbies. I have a book of—
Catherine: Glorious things—
Nate: No one’s sending you Barbies. Written notes that people have sent over the years where you’re just like, this is the most bizarre thing to have received. And, you know, in 10 years in politics, the scrapbook rose, but speaking of, you mentioned Harper being an inspiration of sorts. You also have said, I’m just a regular person who wanted to make a change in politics. You also said, I didn’t wanna be a politician, I wanna be an Olympian. But you also document Sheila Copps as someone you looked up to. You mentioned your dad being very political and Pierre Elliot Trudeau was, you know, the person in politics who was a bit of an inspiration for your dad and family. And so Harper obviously motivating force for me as well in the lead up to 2015. I think there’s a whole class of us in the lead up to 2015 that wanted a different kind of politics. How did you get on the ballot though? You were a lawyer and you thought, no, this is this particular moment. Did, were people tapping on the shoulder and saying, come on, Catherine, now’s the time?
[00:16:00] Catherine McKenna: Well, it’s kind of a funny story because women often have to be asked multiple times. The thing is, I’d already been asked before 2015, and it was kind of funny ‘cause I saw my friend last night who’s part of the story. So when Stéphane Dion was running, I went back to Hamilton. So that’s where my parents, my dad passed away, but that’s where my parents lived. And I was walking up my street and one of the head of the riding association is like, would you like to run? So the election, I think was already called. I’m pregnant, I live in Ottawa. And so I was like, oh. Maybe I should think about that. So I asked my friend, he’s like, well, I guess you won’t have to knock on doors. So that was my first time getting asked. I did not run then, but I ran a charity that did human rights, rule of law and good governance. I’d started this charity after having lived abroad with a friend, and I mean, it was like banging your head on a wall in the pre Harper times. Like we were trying to support human rights. We were working with indigenous youth in Canada, focused on reconciliation. I cared about climate change. I was like, all of these things I’m trying to do outside of the system are a complete and utter waste of time. So I thought, okay, we gotta get rid of the government. So that’s my theory of change. Now my theory of change was create this charitable organization and it’s just not getting the impact. So I decided I was gonna run, but I was in Ottawa Centre, so I don’t know if many of you know Ottawa Centre, it’s actually where Parliament’s located. So it’s great. It’s bike ride to work. But it was Paul Dewar who was a really beloved NDP member of Parliament. His mother had been mayor and I really liked Paul too, but the reality is you gotta win, right? So you gotta win enough seats so you can form government. So I ran for two years and it’s interesting ‘cause I just decided to run like I canvassed and so maybe this will maybe resonate a little bit. So I was like, okay, I really wanna run, but I kind of need permission. I dunno why I thought I needed permission, but I did. So I went the rounds. And I like the liberal party, but it can be like an inside club. And I wasn’t from Ottawa Centre. And so I think people were like a bit perplexed. They’re like, we’re kind of keeping this riding for Star candidate. And I was like, okay, what the heck? Who’s a star? Like what is a star candidate? Is that like a male lawyer who gives a lot of money to the liberal party? Like I was like, seriously, what is a star candidate?
Nate: Yeah, that’s what it’s exactly. Okay. Sorry. Okay. Sorry. I don’t know. You are a male.
Catherine: I ran when I was 29. I had no money. That was a setup. That was a set—
Nate: No it wasn’t. Okay. Anyway, we’ll just blow by that one. You’re a little bit unusual.
Catherine: Okay. So like take you outta that. But anyway, it’s quite funny because then I was like, and then people were like, actually you should just get the party to go get you another riding that’s winnable. So I was like, okay, on the one hand you need a star candidate here for this great riding, but on the flip side, no one can win. So I was like, okay. I don’t really know. So I looked at, you know, I’m not a fool, I was a competitive swimmer. I wanna win. So I looked at the numbers and I realized like, you know, if Justin Trudeau was then leader, if we did super well, we were in third place and it was two years out. But if I worked really hard and we did super well, there was a shot at winning. So I just decided I’m gonna run. And I got the—the chapter’s called the New Girls Club because, and then I had men supporting me. It was fine, but I literally had a lot of women who were just like, I don’t know if you can win. This is kind of bonkers. You’re doing it, but I’m gonna step up and give you some money. I’m gonna go help sell nominations. And at that point you had to sell them. And like, no one wanted to buy a nomination. Like people are like, I don’t wanna be a Party 10 membership. Like, I wanna join a party, especially, you know, liberal party. And it was, and so also it was a lot of, and so those of you were thinking about politics. Like how do you win a nomination? Like I was trying to sell memberships and people weren’t buying them. Like I was like, oh gosh, like every night I’m going out, I’ve got these kids and I’m going out and talking to people and you know, I’m spending two hours and getting one or two people signing up. So I actually realized it was my kids’ friend’s mothers whose names I didn’t know. I just knew their kids and they, I think they were like, wow, we don’t really know anyone that would go into politics, but we actually think you’d be pretty good and your kids are kind of nice and I dunno, I’ll just sign up.
I don’t care. And so, yeah. Yeah, of course. It was actually really heartening and I will say like for all the bad of politics and there is some bad for sure and you will read about it in my book. That campaign for two years. Like we knocked on more than a hundred thousand doors. We had the highest voter turnout in the country. We had, I had my own rules. Like, I was like, we’re gonna do this in the way that I believe in. And you know, some of it was following the Obama Snowflake model. Like, you know, we wanted to run hard, but we also engaged kids. And it wasn’t like we had just like a kid area, we would have kid canvasses. And I just felt it was important to me. And we went to low income parts of the riding where some people said they’re not gonna vote. Or we went to university residences. They’re like, they’re not gonna vote. Actually they turned out in strong numbers and I got a ton of volunteers who, and people then knew my name ‘cause like someone who knows someone who knows someone. So it was great. But I will say like that’s the one thing about getting involved in politics. Maybe be here, I met a couple of you who said, younger people who said you’d like to run, you can do it. You don’t need permission. You’re gonna have to hustle. You’re gonna have to build your team. But this isn’t an in club. And I do sometimes worry that politics feels like an in club and it shouldn’t be that. Like we need everyone who wants to step up and get involved in however they want to get involved to be able to do that. And so that’s my lesson. Read that chapter. Hopefully you feel quite inspired. And when I last knocked on the last door, I didn’t know if I would win or not, but I knew we’d left it all on the ice and I felt great. Like I was like, we also have another woman who has run here. It’s Kelly, is it Kelly? Whose friend—you’ve run a couple times. You know what it’s like, like you build a team. Now you are in a super hard riding. I do hope you run again, but it’s just this feeling of doing something that matters and bringing people together in a common cause that is bigger than yourself. And it’s about believing you can improve lives and you can tackle climate change. So that was great. I hope you read it and feel like you can do it too, if you wanna run. ‘Cause you can. I will say, you gotta work hard. That is one of the most important things. Gotta knock on doors.
[00:22:37] Nate Erskine-Smith: Well, so I wanna get back to though you were emphasizing one, this idea of an insider culture, but at the same time the need to have a really local presence. And it was people who were on the ground in the community who ultimately helped get you over the finish line in the nomination. I mean, here, you know, Sandy’s working the bar. I went to high school with his kids and he signed up in the nomination. You got Sandy and he got a beer and you got Claire and Fred here, who again, I went to high school with their kids and they signed up in the nomination probably for the first time joining the liberal party. And you go down the list and you have people who are behind you locally and in part, I think when you get started now, you go, okay, well I know this person in the party. I know that person in the party. I’ve lived in the party for 12, 13 years, but I was 29 when I was starting to run the nomination. No one was tapping on the shoulder and going like, you’re a star candidate, whatever that means, as you say. And so it does require that desire to say, no one has to ask me. I’m gonna go do it and I’m gonna build my own local team. But it also gets, I think, at another tension of who is your team? Because you say at one point, sometimes you need to be on the outside so you can push the inside to do more. And so you’re on the outside now and you can be probably more honest in your assessment of things and more critical. I have tried though times over the over the 10 years to play that same role in the caucus. What—
[00:24:02] Catherine McKenna: What Nate, I thought you were always like all in on everything. Yeah, all in on everything.
[00:24:06] Nate Erskine-Smith: But it does get to this idea of team. It’s like, be a team player, be a team player, be a team player. And the answer back is, well, who’s your team? And yeah, sure. Of course, the team is the liberal caucus, but the team is also people in Beaches East York, the people who are knocking doors with you in the nomination, people who are knocking doors in the election. And they want accountability. They also want the party and the government to be the best version of itself. And so do you find, you were, when you think back at the six years that you were in politics—I mean cabinet’s a different level of solidarity, obviously, but do you think it’s possible to navigate that, you know, critical accountability role inside the tent? Or do you think it’s essential as you are now to be outside to play that truth function?
[00:24:48] Catherine McKenna: I mean, that’s a really hard question. ‘Cause I mean, I’m a team person. I just am. Like I was captain of the swim team, but cabinet, it’s different. Like, I’ll just have to distinguish—like being in cabinet, yeah, it is different. You do have cabinet solidarity, but in cabinet, let me tell you, I spoke up right? Like everyone didn’t always like it, but I felt like I had an obligation to just say things and that was as much to myself as it was to anyone else. But then once you do that, you know, there is this view that then you stand with the team or else you leave cabinet. That is hard. That is hard, but it’s probably less hard than being in caucus where you feel like you might have less influence on the issues. The one time I felt this was actually when I was out, but it was hard to do, and this is when I spoke up and I said I felt it was time for Justin Trudeau to step down. Like to have a leadership race to allow someone new to come in. And it was funny ‘cause I got all these texts like, and I was out, right, so you think, not such a big deal. But I got texts from people saying, who do you think you are? Like, you know, we’re a liberal team. And I was like, okay, this is weird because I get team, but team doesn’t equal cult. Like, ah.
[00:26:05] Nate Erskine-Smith: And so welcome to my world.
[00:26:09] Catherine McKenna: Nate. And me. Are we exactly the same? Probably not exactly the same, but—no, no, but I think it’s true. ‘Cause like I was like, well wait a minute. Like we also owe it to, you know, in that case, I mean it was also like, we gotta win. Like are we just gonna, is this the way it’s going? We’re just gonna allow us to go down even though, you know, it’s clear that the wheels have come off the cart. And that was hard. Like, but I thought about it and I was just so worried about the other option, like Pierre Poilievre. That was too much. And I was like, okay, if I can make a bit of a difference, I will take a hit. It’s fine. But I like, look, there is, it is really hard to navigate that and I mean obviously if it’s super chaotic and no one’s supporting things, I mean the government will fall and you can’t get agendas through. There does have to be some leeway to say things. Like that is important. It’s that line and the tension. And I know you’ve felt it and you know, we’ve often always been on the same side of those things probably. But that is hard. That is hard. And I don’t know that there’s any easy answer to that because you can’t always be in opposition ‘cause you can’t govern. So I would actually put that to you Nate. No, but I think it’s an interesting question for you. ‘Cause as I say, I was in cabinet so it was a little bit easier. I mean, you literally have to vote with the government. Yes. But for you, there were times that you decided to, you know, be your own voice and not necessarily, well, when I say not necessarily not support, you know, the government’s position, like how did you make decisions on that? Like how do you decide, this is the moment I’m gonna do that. Sometimes I care, but I don’t care as much. Or maybe I’ve done it, you know, a few times and I should stay together. Like, how did you, how do you make that choice?
[00:27:52] Nate Erskine-Smith: So I think that Trudeau and running for his leadership, one thing that drew me to him, actually, he was calling for generational renewal at the time, which appealed to me. But he was also talking about doing politics differently and whether that promise was entirely realized or not. You know, you lived around the cabinet table, you know more than me in some ways, but I would say the promise of freer votes was incredibly appealing to me as the kind of politics that I wanna see. Because I do think you want that grassroots politics. You want people to be, it sounds trite now, but that idea of being voices for the community in Ottawa, not the other way around, but there is a truth to that. And so how do you get there and also maintain unity. And I think they navigated that quite well in the leadership and then it became part of our platform in 2015. He articulated this idea of, well, we’re gonna have whipped votes on platform promises. Do I agree with everything in the platform? No, but, you know, I’ll bite my tongue where I disagree. And I’ll certainly vote with the government. Two, on charter rights and human rights issues. And then three, and this is more fraught, but on confidence matters. More fraught, I say because there were moments where they made certain things confidence matters that I didn’t think they should have. But, you know, that was the deal and that was the deal that, you know, you make with constituents. It’s the deal that you make with members of the liberal party. Beyond that, I think it’s more about how you go about disagreeing. And then it’s making sure that you’ve given notice, making sure that you’ve explained your reasons. I’ve joked, I’ve been on many different whips’ couches, but Andy Leslie, I thought was the best whip in part because he would say, why are you doing this? And you’d run through the reasons. He goes, well, have you engaged with them? Like, do they know? Yeah. Well, have they tried to convince you otherwise? Yeah. And, but here are the reasons. Okay, well it sounds like you thought about it. Get outta my office. And there was a, you could tell why he was an effective general. ‘Cause he built respect between you. Whereas, you know, the other approach is you have to vote with us, but that’s not the deal and here’s why. And it’s a less effective approach from a whip. But I would say how you, you know, I’ve used the example of electoral reform. I wasn’t going and doing media saying, Justin Trudeau is an awful person for breaking this promise. And, you know, this is the most cynical thing he could have possibly have done. And what a bait and switch. I wasn’t burning bridges and making this personal, I was saying, you know, he doesn’t think a referendum is a good idea. Here’s why I think there’s a better path forward and here’s why I think we, here’s a way of us maintaining that promise. And here’s why I don’t think we should have broken the promise. And, you know, different people in the liberal party have different views. So I think the way we go about disagreeing and creating space for reasonable disagreement within the party, outside the party, but especially within the party, really matters. And then sometimes you just have to say, there’s an old Vonnegut line. It’s, we are who we pretend to be. So be careful who you pretend to be. And I think it’s doubly true in politics. And so, you know, you wanna wake up after politics and I think I did the thing I was supposed to do when I was there, and sometimes that means, you know, being a good team player and other times it means standing up and saying what you think. Okay. But back to questions for you.
[00:30:55] Catherine McKenna: Do you like that one? That was pretty good, eh? Just put a little, put Nate on the hot seat for a little bit.
[00:31:00] Nate Erskine-Smith: You can ask me questions too. Okay. So you, I was gonna ask you, why not politics, but you’ve sort of said, I’ve heard you say, you felt that you were done, you did what you came to do. But I wanna push back on that a little bit because you did a lot of the things in terms of, especially around climate—first climate plan. You put carbon pricing in place. A number of measures. I mean, that gets all the attention. And we can talk about the walk back on it. But there’s stringent methane rules. There were major investments in public transit. There’s a clean electricity standard. You know, you run down the list of different things that we’ve worked towards and advanced broadly. And then we talk about consumer carbon pricing. But the industrial carbon piece is huge. Having said that, do you worry, you left at a time when the politics were toxic, but not as toxic as they are today around climate and certainly around carbon pricing. And do you feel like you left before you had made sure the gains were going to be protected?
[00:31:59] Catherine McKenna: I think the lesson I learned, you can never protect gains. Right? Like you’re just gonna always have to fight. And like, I can’t, like what am I gonna be in politics? So I’m like 120? Like, sorry. And it is really true. Like when, the weird thing, so I’d been through COVID, I had three teenagers, one who as I mentioned is here. And I really thought hard. Like I turned 50 and it, like, I’m not someone who’s big on birthdays. It’s like this existential thing. I wasn’t sad, it was like whatever. But I was like, okay, I’m 50 now. Like, you know, what do I wanna do at 50? I really forced myself to do it and I really felt like, remember I got into politics to make change. So I just thought, what is the best way to make change? And I really felt it wasn’t, I felt personally for myself at this point it wasn’t through politics. I really wanted to work globally on climate because I really felt we’d done a lot and I did think we kind of landed carbon price and we’ve gone through two elections and one at the Supreme Court. So I felt like, okay, people will keep it. We will be able to keep it. So I just felt that there were other things I wanted to do and I’d really come, what I’d, you know, I said I would leave when I had done what I’d come to do, and that was a really important promise to myself. And I really wanna spend time with my kids. Like you give up a lot in politics, and my kids were going off to university and I’d been through COVID and if any parents, has anyone been through COVID, but if you’re a parent like of teenage kids, that was like a pretty bleak time. Like, I’d be like, do you guys wanna play another game? Like, I was like, oh my God. And then they’d go to their room, they’d be like, I’m doing school. Like, and I’d be like, as if you’re doing school, you’re online, probably playing video games, but what am I gonna do? Right? Like, let’s go for another walk. They’re like, okay, we’ll go for a walk if we can go get a slushie. And I was like, I’m gonna rot their teeth. And my dad was a dentist, so I was like, this is bad, but this is like, we’re engaging for 20 minutes. Like, it was really hard. And so I actually, when I made the decision, like, but the counter, the funny thing that is so hilarious now to me is I almost was like, I’m not gonna leave because if I leave, those haters will think they drove me out. So I was like, okay, I’m gonna stay. And it was bizarre. I was like, okay, I don’t wanna—
Nate: Stay when you’re staying.
Catherine: I don’t wanna stay. I don’t think this is the most useful point of my, like, you know, part of what I, you know, this is useful, but I’m gonna stay because these random people that I don’t care about are actually gonna say, ha ha, I chased her out. So then I was like, okay, well let’s actually be rational here and you know, an adult. So I made the decision and I actually felt really zen. Like, it was quite weird after I did it, where it was actually politicians who would do it to me. They’d be like, are you okay? They’d be like, I’m amazing. Whatcha talking about? And like, you know, it was as if leaving politics, I would not be okay. And then people would say like, is it hard not to have staff? I was like, I’m actually free. I could do whatever I want. Like I can go to a microphone now and say whatever. Probably people will care a lot less, but I don’t—
Nate: You can do that in politics sometimes too.
Catherine: Yes, Nate? Yes, Nate. We know about that. Yeah. It was just, so anyway, I left politics. I was not, I do think that what I always worried about more than actually the haters thinking they won, was that women and women and girls would think I left politics ‘cause of all the hate. Yeah. And once again, I’ll just repeat it ‘cause it’s very important to me. The reason I say the things that happened to me in the book is not ‘cause I need sympathy. I don’t. We do need change. And I felt when I left, I said I would support women and girls in politics. One of the ways I’m doing it is making sure that it is a better place than what I had to put up with. Now, sadly, it’s not because it’s actually worse now. I hear from counselors, I hear from school board trustees, I hear from all sorts of women in politics, but also men, however you identify, like it’s bad out there. And it’s not just online, it is now offline. People think they can shout at you and scream at you and take a video of it, put it in the dark web or wherever that could go. So, you know, that’s bad. But I feel like, you know, people are like, oh, we gotta stop that. And that’s what’s important. There’s a nice letter here. So as I said, I have random things in here, but there’s this lovely gentleman named Luigi. I haven’t talked about Luigi yet, have I? So I was at the airport. This gentleman came over to me and I still get a little nervous when people, because I don’t know what people are gonna do, right? Like I probably, 99% of them are very nice, but it only takes one 1%. So I always get slightly nervous. And I don’t mean to be, ‘cause I’m actually, as you can see, gregarious. I like talking to people, but never exactly sure. And he hands me a note and walks away and I’m like, oh God, is this like an exploding letter? Who knows? And I open it and it’s in the book. So I’ll read you his letter. ‘Cause it actually, I put it towards the end. ‘Cause I think it’s really important, because you can see, I asked Luigi if I could put his note, so his note is here. So, “Ms. McKenna, I did not wanna disturb you, so I thought I would write this note instead. Because I identify as a conservative, in all likelihood, we probably would disagree on many issues. I find it quite disturbing the level of abuse that you and many other female politicians must endure. It is unfortunate and unacceptable and I make a point of speaking out when I see it. I hope that you take consolation in the fact that you and others like you are making it easier for the next generation of women, including my three daughters. Luigi.” And I was like, this is like the nicest note. And I think that’s also what I hope from my book. Like I hope people are like, yeah, we can be, we can actually disagree, but be normal and you know, okay with each other. And probably most people are, most people are like Luigi or probably not paying attention, but there are people that aren’t doing that and I think they’re also fed sometimes by politicians themselves, who, you know, really ratchet things up and attack people personally. And so, that’s a long answer to, I can’t even remember the question, but I mean it that I left politics and I was done. And that’s not related to Luigi, but Luigi’s a nice guy.
[00:38:24] Nate Erskine-Smith: I think I’ve got, those are my questions around the book, but I do have a couple questions on climate policy. ‘Cause you’re living and breathing that still. And although it’s interesting, you comment about politicians, I mean, there’s a deep inauthenticity sometimes where politicians treat it as a game. And there’s these, you know, attacks for clicks, or in some cases, especially when the conservatives were riding high in the polls, people were tripping over themselves to try and prove to the leader that they could be nasty and that they could, you know, score points and all of that. And so they all wanted to make cabinet by, you know, ratcheting up a certain nastiness. But then, you know, cameras get turned off and they, you know, turn into human beings again to a degree. And so there’s that kind of inauthenticity, I think sets a real nasty tone for others in politics more generally. But on climate policy, I was in Edmonton for our national caucus meeting. I think I texted you this, but I get scrummed by reporters and they were asking me all climate questions and I was like, oh, this is nice. I’m getting asked climate questions for a change. This is good. This puts climate back on the radar. And then a reporter says, well, are you concerned about the Carney government backtracking on climate commitments? And I said, well, backtracking on climate commitments, I mean, if you read the book Values, it’d be a very odd thing for us to do. Do you worry that we are backtracking? Do you worry that we’re not going to be ambitious enough or do you think we’re still, we haven’t yet seen the climate competitiveness strategy? I mean, you know, here’s an opportunity to say we should do much more. I don’t know, but are you concerned just given the dynamic in politics as they’re unfolding, that we are not going to get where we need to get?
[00:40:05] Catherine McKenna: I mean, look, I’m like you. First of all, I did get into politics. I wasn’t an expert on climate, but I cared about climate because I have kids. We have this truck that’s coming for our kids, and I’m a mother, so I’m gonna do everything I can. I was in a position that I learned a lot about climate policy. And climate policy is complicated. And you gotta get it right.
But look, Mark Carney knows as much about climate as an economic issue as anyone. And so I’m certainly hopeful that he can take different approaches, but at the end of the day, your climate policy requires you to reduce emissions because climate change isn’t a political issue. Of course, it’s very political. I’m not gonna understate it. I know that as much as anyone. But in the end, the science is the science. We’ve gotta reduce our emissions.
And you’ve probably all heard this rant of mine before, but I will bring up my rant again. I sometimes hear about a grand bargain with oil and gas companies. We did a grand bargain with oil and gas companies. How’d that work out? Let me tell you how that worked out.
So we were working really hard to get a national climate plan, and I saw it as an obligation of mine to work with provinces to build on the policies they had. The Alberta government had stood with the government of Rachel Notley, along with Marie Edwards, who’s the head of one of the oil and gas companies, with environmentalists, with economists, with indigenous peoples saying, okay, this is the climate plan. Alberta’s gonna do a cap on emissions from oil and gas, a price on pollution, tough methane regs, and some other things.
And so we were pushed and it was really hard. I was environment and climate change where we had a climate emergency one day and then we had a pipeline the next. I talk about that. That was hard. But the reality is we felt that the Alberta government, the NDP Alberta government at the time, we needed to support them early on.
And so then what did we get? Where are we right now? We basically, none of those policies are gone or they’re not effective. We got a pipeline at massive taxpayer costs. It’s like 500% over budget.
[00:42:23] Nate Erskine-Smith: Yeah, same price. We have oil...
[00:42:24] Catherine McKenna: And gas companies that made historic record profits largely as a result of Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine. What did they do with those profits? They said that they were gonna invest in climate solutions. They were gonna reduce their emissions. They were all in, but instead they gave their CEOs massive historic bonuses. I’m from Hamilton, that’s not a thing. When you get these massive historic record bonuses at the same time, they gave the money back to shareholders who were largely Americans, while they demanded more subsidies to clean up their own pollution. While we are in a climate crisis that is a fossil fuel climate crisis.
I now feel taken for a fool because I believed that oil and gas, particularly the oil sands, would live up to their end of the bargain. You will see in the book, I probably can’t find the page fast enough, I did pinky promises with kids because all these kids came up to me all the time and they said, I’m really working hard on climate change. You know, I’ve got a water bottle, I’m riding my bike, I’m doing a used clothing drive, whatever it was. And I said, you know what? I’m doing my part too. Let’s do a pinky promise, a pinky square, and we will promise to continue doing our part.
Well, we all did our part, by the way. Basically everyone in all sectors have done their part except for oil and gas when they had massive historic record profits. And I wrote a report for the UN Secretary General on greenwashing, and they were exhibit A on what greenwashing looks like. Committing, saying you were doing things that you are not doing and while you’re lobbying to kill every policy.
So I just hope that people aren’t taken for fools again. The grand bargain should be they should live up to their end of the bargain. That is what bargains are. You gotta do what you say you were going to do and they didn’t do it. And as a result, it’s extremely hard for Canada to meet our target because they are 30% and growing of our emissions. So I also think, why are we paying? Why would taxpayers pay?
Look, I don’t know, hard things are hard, as my mug says that I was given by my team because I said it every single day about 12 times a day. You have to make very tough decisions in government and we’re in a trade war. And also we have to absolutely stand up and defend our sovereignty against the Trump regime, which is very dangerous and very destabilizing.
But at the same time, we can’t not act on climate. Climate is a here and now problem. It’s not only a fire problem. All these people were evacuated from communities. The cost of climate change is massive. People are not gonna be able to be insured. That’s already happening. And so I just think you gotta walk and chew gum. You gotta figure out how to build and grow the economy. But you also need to figure out how to tackle climate change and reduce your emissions. And to be honest, hold the sector that is most responsible for climate change accountable for their actions and also for their words. Because they said they were gonna act on climate and they supported these policies and they are now still fighting to kill all these policies. You almost can’t make it up.
And I just don’t think Canadians should be taken for fools. And I think you gotta make a lot of choices with tax dollars. But I’m not in government and I think Mark Carney, he’s very smart, he’s doing a great job at defending Canada. I think like everyone, I’m waiting to see what the climate plan is because it’s extremely important and the climate plan is an economic plan as much as anything else.
[00:46:06] Nate Erskine-Smith: And on that, I would say not just an economic plan, but when you talk about national resiliency, there’s a promise in our platform to become a clean energy superpower. There’s a promise in our platform to create an east-west transmission grid. And just in Ontario, when you look at the fact that not only are they doubling down on natural gas, but they’re also importing natural gas from the United States when solar, wind, storage is actually more cost effective. Investments in east-west transmission grid and in clean energy would make a lot more sense, not only for the climate, not only for the economy, but also as a matter of resiliency and energy independence as well.
Okay. Those are my questions, so thank you. Give a round of applause for Catherine. Thank you for joining. With the time that we’ve got left, Kristian, we got what, 10, 15 minutes? What time is it? We’re at 15 minutes in. Okay, great. So does anyone have questions for Ms. McKenna? Connor.
[00:47:00] Audience: It’s a question for both of you actually. You guys have both been trailblazers in your own right inside of politics. And you talk a lot about building your community and building your team, whether it’s swimming or local politics, and also demanding space in those places to be competitive, all the way up from your local team up to the Prime Minister. But I am curious on the other side of that, what does it look like to be a good teammate inside of politics? And how do we support more people for those of us that might not be running, but trying to get more people like you? Or what is, maybe as an example, somebody that supported you?
[00:47:40] Catherine McKenna: Well, I mean, look, I’m trying to do my part and so what I did, and it’s like what most of you did, you go support people that you think are good, that are running. So in the last election, I went and I supported people that I thought were serious about climate, including in ridings that we had never won before. And I also, probably especially those ridings, I also supported women candidates. That was just a choice. I mean, I think everyone getting involved in politics is a great way to do it. But also when you think there’s someone good that might be good to run, talk to them about it. And as I said, for women, they need to be asked often seven times I think. So for women, maybe just start asking and if we get to the seventh time, maybe really good women will run.
[00:48:26] Nate Erskine-Smith: And I would add, I suppose, just locally, I have found going into schools and talking politics and encouraging people to think about politics as an opportunity has translated into our youth council, has then translated into our young liberals internship over the summer where we make sure people are able to be paid to knock on doors and just maintain involvement. And then a number of those people come through either our office and then they’re working in politics in a minister’s office or in the Prime Minister’s office, or they’re going to law school or they’re adjacent to politics and helping other people and just encouraging people to at least be close to politics so that they see politics as a way to make a difference. There will then be people that will want to run from that or help encourage other people to run.
The second thing, and I’ll use Mark Holland as an example, when I was running the nomination, I didn’t have contacts in the party, but I had someone who knew Mark Holland and he gave me advice to think about it like concentric circles when you’re running in a nomination where you have people who are close to you and then the people who are close to you will have 10 people that are close to them that maybe they can sign them up for you. Or maybe they just open the door. And if someone opens the door to a conversation with me, I feel pretty confident that I can close the sale. But if the door’s closed in my face, I’m not gonna even have an opportunity to. And so just that idea of building out, you start with your home base and you build out from there.
So I just think I have in the last week had conversations with two people who wanna run for office at some point. They’re both under the age of 30. And I’ve given that same kind of advice of here’s what worked for me, it may work for you, it may not, it depends, but find where your home base is and then just grow from there. And so I think just spending time, giving one’s time to give advice like that is really important.
[00:50:07] Audience: Building on that, I wanted to, because I think that dovetails nicely into what you said earlier, Catherine, about really encouraging young women in particular to get into politics. But it’s not just all the peripheral people, people that are peripheral to politics, your concentric circles. So you don’t necessarily have to run for an office. And I appreciate what you’ve done for girls, but I also want you to know that I’m older than you and still you are a role model to me. Not only that though, I have sons in their mid to late twenties, and I’ve made sure women like you are a role model to them because I think that’s how change begins.
[00:50:54] Nate Erskine-Smith: This was entirely planted just for you, by the way.
[00:50:57] Catherine McKenna: No, but I think that’s important, right? My book is not Run Like a Girl. I’m a woman, identify as a woman. And there’s a story about how I was told I ran like a girl and so it really bugged me. So it’s a particular thing, but I think that is important. This isn’t exclusive. Although there are certain different barriers, at least that I’m aware of, if you’re a woman, if you’re LGBTQ+, if you’re racialized or indigenous, there could be different barriers.
But I hear you and I think we do have to inspire each other in a whole range of ways. So that is very nice. I hope that, I mean, I’m not looking for kudos, I really, but it is nice to hear that you can inspire people in a whole different range of ways.
[00:51:48] Audience: Yeah. And it’s really not about kudos. It’s about, my intent is not just to applaud you, it’s to recognize you. And that’s different, like being seen, holding space for people to be involved. And so I do have one actual question though.
[00:52:09] Catherine McKenna: You can ask a question after that.
[00:52:12] Audience: Regarding carbon pricing, how would you communicate the rollout differently?
[00:52:18] Catherine McKenna: Well, I would actually fund it. Hard things are hard. I’m like, okay, well first of all we know the conservatives were terrible. They lied about it. They misled. They didn’t talk about the money going back. The problem is we hampered ourselves too. And it was really quite weird because I was like, okay well we need an advertising budget because clearly this is a complicated policy, but the most important thing I need people to know is that we’re tackling climate change and we’re doing it in a way that we’re gonna leave low income and middle income people better off. You’re gonna get more money back. That’s very important. The second part of the message is as important because I knew the concern was gonna be you’re just increasing the price of everything. But we were told we couldn’t advertise.
And I was like, why? And they said, well, because we’re not like conservatives. Because they had done the, what was the plan?
[00:53:05] Nate Erskine-Smith: Economic Action Plan.
[00:53:06] Catherine McKenna: Economic Action Plan. And they politicized it. The signs everywhere basically.
[00:53:09] Nate Erskine-Smith: What Ford does now, they were doing it.
[00:53:11] Catherine McKenna: That sounds really good, except if you’re me, because I was like, well, no one really knows about it. So I’m one person and we got some caucus members, not all of them, but Nate will go out and talk about it. Some people talk about it, but I said people are entitled to know what government policy is, especially in this particular case where you’ve literally gotta file your taxes to get the rebate, because that was the second mistake we made.
I was told that we couldn’t just do quarterly checks, which would be much more obvious to people, even if it was automatically deposited, if you actually named it properly, which was another problem. But all of these things that are just normal things, and instead we were told, I was told by the folks in the Canada Revenue Agency, there’s no way we could possibly do quarterly checks. After COVID, when we did everything, we blew everything up. Then they were like, oh, actually, and this was after me, they were like, we can do quarterly checks. I was like, well, this is really helpful. That would’ve been nice a little bit longer, like at the beginning of this.
And so I think we do need to be sometimes very tough. Don’t do things that sound great and are really hampering your ability to actually deliver a policy in a way that people understand. So it’s just a hard policy. People say, what would you have done differently? Yes, I would’ve communicated it differently. I tried. I was out there, I went to H&R Block because I saw a sign and they were like, climate action incentive. Oh, by the way, we couldn’t call it a rebate because the lawyers told us in justice we couldn’t do that. And I’m a lawyer. I was like, what? And so I should have fought that one harder too, right? I mean, there’s so many fights you can have internally as well, but there I am. I was like, oh, H&R Block, they’re doing free advertising for us because they wanted people to file their taxes.
So then I would say to all caucus members, you need to go to your H&R Block and get a family. I don’t even wanna see you necessarily. I want a family to be sitting down being told they’re getting money back. And so look, I think it is just a hard policy and what happened though, I mean, read Hard Things Are Hard, the chapter, and people will be like, I’m definitely not reading that chapter. You can skip chapters. This book is like, go back and forth, rip things out. You don’t have to read it in chronological order or read particular chapters.
But I mean, the challenge was, if the price is gonna go up every year, every year, you better be ready to fight for it. Because every year you’re literally creating this conflict point where conservatives are like, they’re on it. They’re spending so much tax dollars to mislead people. Remember the stickers on the pump that fell off? That was quite funny. They actually fell off. But you are gonna have to fight for it. And so we just, it’s a very hard policy. You know, I did everything I could and I don’t live life with regrets. I think it was really important.
And by the way, it’s a case study outside of government, outside of Canada. Everyone’s like Canada. I was like, oh yeah, there is a little different ending than you might wanna know about what happened, but they’re like, yes, this is of course how we should do it. Should be a price on pollution. Give them money back.
[00:56:11] Nate Erskine-Smith: I went to a movie at the Beach Cinema with my kids and there was an ad, this is years ago, but there was an ad, so we were advertising, but it was advertising about the environment climate plan. And it was like people in canoes. And I was like, what is this trying to, we’re spending how much money on this to tell me what exactly. And I went to Steven, he was the minister, and I went, Steven, can we please advertise? Carbon pricing works. It’s 10 plus percent of our overall plan and 80% of people get more money back or break even. Just tell people those three things, I don’t need the canoe. And then he was like, well we can’t, they tell us we can’t do it.
[00:56:55] Catherine McKenna: No. And that’s what you’re often told. It is kind of weird internally the amount of times you’re told no. On advertising it is a particular thing because then you’re having a fight about comms. I was like, oh my gosh, can we just get it? I don’t think the canoe is...
[00:57:07] Nate Erskine-Smith: Gonna win this carbon pricing. And it didn’t, turns out. I love canoeing.
[00:57:10] Catherine McKenna: By the way. So maybe it would’ve convinced me if I was to say that. So I think last...
[00:57:13] Nate Erskine-Smith: Question, we’ll finish with Marilyn. Hi, I’m Marilyn and I also happen...
[00:57:18] Catherine McKenna: To be the president of the Ontario Women’s Liberal Commission. And of course...
[00:57:22] Nate Erskine-Smith: Woo-hoo! Yay, yay women. And of course...
[00:57:29] Catherine McKenna: The former candidate, oh, and I ran in 2022. It was a hard race, it was a hard time for all of us.
[00:57:35] Audience: Two things I know, obviously running with Trudeau and being in his cabinet. It was a large overemphasis on a gender balanced cabinet. And you know, it’s a feminist cabinet and he is a feminist prime minister and that’s great. You did a lot for us to recognize the importance of having women at the table, but then of course it kind of feels a little tokenistic and maybe you’re there because you’re a woman, and then it kind of undermines your competencies and your capabilities. And so I wonder if you can kind of reflect back and also just mindful of like, your title is Run Like a Girl, we’re mindful of like, we want you to run because you can, and not because you’re a girl, but because you’re competent and capable. But just the tension that people might feel like we’re running or getting opportunities just because we’re...
[00:58:25] Nate Erskine-Smith: Did everyone hear that? Yep. Okay.
[00:58:29] Catherine McKenna: So I mean, it’s just impossible being a woman, right? That’s like what you said. You’re like, oh my God. But that’s how I felt, right? On the one hand, so first of all, let me be very clear that when Justin Trudeau said this is 2015, it’s gonna be a gender balanced cabinet because it’s 2015, I was like, amazing. Great. We’re half the population, it’s 2015. I kind of thought that that was the point.
The problem is then it was constantly repeated. And I don’t wanna diminish it. I am a feminist, but I don’t wake up every day and say, woo-hoo, I’m a feminist. I was waking up every day and I’m like, I gotta do this hard job. I’m gonna go do it. And also the whole gender thing was so weird because on the flip side, then I’m Climate Barbie. So I’m like, how do we just, I just wanna be someone doing something in politics. However, we do need to break barriers. So having 50% women, I heard it when I was in Japan. This one woman in cabinet, one woman, she’s like, I cannot believe how important it was to see when you guys made that announcement. So we can’t diminish it.
The challenge though is when you repeat something so much, it’s gotta be about outcomes. And I’ll give one example, maybe it’s not a fair example, but we said we’ve got a feminist foreign policy. And I was like, okay, what does that mean? And we were gonna have all these women peacekeepers, we never increased women peacekeepers at all. So we actually decreased our peacekeepers overall. So it was kind of weird because then people are calling you out.
And then of course the flip side, and we saw this, was that when the Prime Minister had conflicts with women, it was put into a frame of, well, he’s not a feminist. Even if the conflicts had nothing to do with the fact that they were women. So it is extremely fraught and I don’t have any easy solutions. I think that what is really important is outcomes. So childcare is really important that we did childcare, that is a very important thing that we did, that we raised hundreds of thousands of children out of poverty. That is a real thing. So also it is about what you deliver on in the real world.
We also did, I was gonna say super nerdy, but I’m a policy nerd. We did a gender-based analysis policy that actually, we don’t have to put that in the window, but when you actually think, how would policy affect people differently? That’s actually a really good way of understanding, is this a good policy? Is this gonna get the outcome? So I mean, I think we did things, it is hard, and then people pick on my book. They’re like, see, you call him out and he’s not really a feminist. I was like, oh my gosh, are we really getting into this whole thing?
Although I did make the point that it did feel kind of heavy sometimes where I was like, you know, maybe I just got into cabinet because I was actually pretty competent, right? And by the way, cabinet is a bunch of people. They’ve gotta find diversity of regions. They got a whole bunch of things. And sometimes actually there are men that aren’t that competent in cabinet. Cabinet is just a thing. And so yeah, I mean, it’s hard. It is hard and it is a fraught space for sure. But I think, look, at the end of the day, you should be judged on outcomes. And I think we did a lot of good. We could have done more, but I think we did a lot of good on the gender front. It’s just you don’t always have to be out there calling everything feminist. Because my book club was like, they were like, we’re all feminists. They were like, but just free advice, could you just stop using feminist in everything you do? And I was like, I get it, I get it.
[01:01:55] Nate Erskine-Smith: I think just on that, you’re right to emphasize the different diversities across something like a cabinet selection. I mean, we don’t make a big deal in this country about the fact that you have regional diversity. It’s just an established, accepted fact. Of course, we’re gonna have regional diversity in cabinet selections. Of course you’re gonna look for gender equality in your cabinet because welcome to the population. I mean, my law school class, this is many years ago, was more, it was like 52% women. If just on the basic matter of competence, there’s gonna be lots of competent people to choose from. And that’s just, I think your point is if you don’t have to parade it around, just do the damn thing. Because that’s the thing we do. We don’t parade around the fact we do geographic diversity. It’s just that’s the thing that’s accepted that we do. Of course we do it, of course you do gender equality. Of course you do. And then you focus on the fact that people in cabinet are competent and go do the damn job. And if you can’t do the job, then we find someone else to do the job.
[01:02:50] Catherine McKenna: Yeah. And I also just wanna point out that, and I talked about this in the book, we actually had broader diversity than just gender and regional diversity. We had people who had disabilities. We had people that were different religious groups. We had a refugee. I’m not gonna go on and on. But I mean we gotta represent the population. That’s why in fact I was proud to be standing with the liberal party. There are more things we could do on the diversity front, but we actually attracted a lot of candidates with a variety of different backgrounds. And that is how you do a better job of making decisions.
And now I have to defend this now, not here with these folks, but people are like, well, I don’t know, women on boards. I was like, okay, it’s not a woke issue. I’ve got McKinsey reports, I’m gonna give you a hundred McKinsey reports because I’m literally not gonna debate it. It just says that diversity leads to better decisions. That’s just a thing. And we don’t have to go back in time. We’re not, this isn’t a woke thing. This is just like getting better outcomes. So I think it is important, but it is a complicated thing and you don’t overplay your hand on things. And then unfortunately, when something happens, then suddenly you’re like, well, you’re not a feminist. Well, I don’t think that would’ve been said about others. It’s just it had been such a big deal.
[01:04:04] Nate Erskine-Smith: Yeah, but I think we just gotta emphasize there are different kinds of representation. So there’s descriptive representation. You want people in politics to look like the population, for sure. But you also want, this idea of add women change politics, sure. Unless they’re Margaret Thatcher. It depends. It depends who’s there to stand up for equality, right? You want a hundred percent feminists and you want them to be descriptively representative of the population, but also them all to believe in the things that matter when it comes to substantive representation of equality. So I think we sometimes over-index on description instead of substantive representation of the views and values we wanna see around equality at the same time. That’s a whole other podcast.
100%. Well, okay. So thank you very much. Catherine’s gonna hang around and I think her daughter is selling books still. Is that right? Maybe. I hope so. But I’ll stay around too. Thank you everyone for coming. Thank you Catherine for spending the time and we will try to do more. So we do this podcast and as I say, most of it, the focus is online and the focus is get it up on YouTube and get it up on Spotify. But it’s nice to have an audience and so we are going to try to do more of these in-person recordings at the same time. So keep a lookout for emails of what’s to come and if you have suggestions for guests or ideas, let me know. And thanks very much. Appreciate it.
[01:05:30] Catherine McKenna: Thank you, Nate.
